Tuesday, October 24, 2006

The New Atheism

Wired is one of my favorite reads. The new issue deals with the concept
of no God. I can't begin to comprehend the concept of "organization out
of chaos", the "big bang". I'll read and post my thoughts. The cover
says,"No Heaven. No Hell. Just Science". What do you say?
--Hammertime
From my sidekick

34 comments:

fornya said...

It's interesting. The older I get the more I realize what I don't know. I don't know if there is a God, just science, both or neither. However, I think it's great to have discussions on all aspects of our belief system, whether they are based in theology or science. And what's really important is that, whatever you think or believe, trust in your faith, do good deeds worthy or your faith, and allow others to do the same even if your beliefs are not the same.

Thanks Hammertime!

Deron said...

There is no God in a world where MC Hammer is not living in my basement for the winter.

Edgel110 said...

As a new member to church and to be dumb to alot of things, It scares me to think that this sort of thing is being taught in the classrooms today.This scientists that are saying all things was created by the "big bang" well what created the big bang? Well scientist are doing good in this world and I am not coming down on them, but scientists that are saying all this dont have all the answers either. I do know that as a professional firefighter I have seen miracles, I have seen people walk out of accidents that shouldnt.

I do know that when God is dealing with your heart he will eliminate any doubts you have!!!!

God Bless and be safe!

hotpink said...

Make no mistake only GOD can breathe the breath of life into man, command the sun to rise and set daily, and the birds in the air to sing praises on high.
"Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord." Psalm 150:6 (NIV)

Hallejueh!
Hotpink

Vince P. said...

I think anyone of faith who is looking for perspective on what Dawkins and others are preaching about atheism needs to understand that Dawkins and the other more shrill members of that community do not represent everyone who believes as he does. He approach is directly confrontational and arrogant because he seems to want to serve as an irritant to folks who hold unexamined religious beliefs.

On the plus side, he especially opposes any sort of "magical thinking" which encourages people to devalue this physical mortal life in favor of an afterlife. He seems to think that emphasizing the afterlife to the degree that religious radicals (Christian, Mulim, or otherwise) encourages a destructive approach to life.

In the end, his sort of "atheism" could be better described as "naturalism" where blind religious belief is replaced with an appreciation for nature through science. This approach encourages the individual to be in awe of nature and inspired by it; all the while withdrawing from and discouraging the use of mythology to explain nature. It is this sort of mythology which inevitably becomes religious scripture. And this scripture inevitably becomes a point of disagreement with other cultures; all of which becomes an excuse for war, dehumanization (if you're not one of us you're not human), etc.

Anyway, this is a big subject, and I just wanted to throw this out there to an audience who might appreciate it. If you're going to dip your toe in Dawkin's pool, please understand that the water is bitter on purpose. The alternative to what he describes and the alternative to a life of unexamined beliefs is naturalism and I think that should not be lost in all of the vitriol.

-Vince

VincePlatt@yahoo.com

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Caleb said...

I am a firm believer that god is within--our very essence. Science shows us how his power operates,so to the degree that we master science/master self we can become more god-like which is the ultimate goal.

"We're made in his image and likeness...ye are all gods children of the most high god...the father is within..." all of this& plenty more tells us what we should strive for. The New Testament talks about what people will be like and it says we will be like HIM...to the degree we submit.

We are individuals: beings with two natures which cannot be divided. So we can choose the low animalistic nature that we start off with or the high godly nature. This is the journey,but sadly,most of us grow physically yet don't grow into our higher nature whereby we would truly have/live heaven on earth.

We are the only beings that have divine will(choice)............there's so much more I'd like to say on this but perhaps I've said enough for now.

Vince P. said...

Caleb, I like your way of viewing scripture. I have often thought the same thing, that we are children of god meant to aspire to become "adults", or more god-like in your words. Of course, this means trying to develop all of the attributes one normally associates with being "holy" and not making it into an ego trip ("dude, I'm a god!").

If you start from the view point of science / naturalism though, I think I have to acknowledge that there is no scientific reason to believe this though. The tradition argument is "well, you just have to have faith!". And atheism comes back with "yeah, why?". There really isn't a good answer to that question that makes sense as far as I know.

If anyone has a good answer to "yeah, why?", I'd love to hear it. Remember that simply referencing scripture of any kind isn't a very good answer for someone who no longer holds any scripture as valid anymore. And, even if I did believe in scripture, who's scripture is valid? And, even if I knew that answer, which parts should I believe in? Any body of scripture from the Christian Bible to the Hindu Vedas is full of self contradiction and they contradict each other too. It's a little hard to say I would be on firm ground as a believer in any of them.

So, that is the struggle for someone like me. I will probably have to resign myself to a happy middle where I can't say I know for sure that we're going to develop into something ultimately better, but that following a more "holy" lifestyle is still a smart thing to do because it reduces drama, increases happiness, and makes what may be an infinite or very limited mortal life more enjoyable and meaningful.

-Vince

MC Hammer said...

I love the discussion. Lets keep it going. thanks to all.

Abandoned in Pasadena said...

Caleb...I firmly agree with your way of thinking.

Wade3 said...

Prov 1:7 Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, so if you don't believe God exists that says it all. 1Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. I would also recommend "One God Three Faiths" by F.E. Peters, it's also available on audio for those with long commutes.

Frank Walton said...

If there's no heaven (in particular, the Christian type of heaven), then there's no use living. That's how I see it. Philosopher William Lane Craig writes on this subject here.

North said...

we are all a significant creation OF god; we are god's evolutionary essence... the eternal source of intelligence, knowledge and human love; which god has for us.

We are spirits, in human forms. Our heaven and hell; is in our mind.

with loving kindness,
North

PS--MC< check out my handmade greeting cards on my blog! I may be considered legally disabled; but, I can still "create" b/c god is part of me.. how can I not?

god is the pillar of logic.

*`~grrligrrl~`* said...

I believe in "What ever Gets you through the Day".

BrianJeremiah said...

Let me ask you guys a question. When it comes to Darwinian Evolution which sex is considered the more complex human?


Answer is the female.

Now I ask you a second question ... according to darwinian evolution things go from less complex to more complex. How exactly did we get a vastly more complex reproductive system in a girl at the same time as we have males with a completely different system to reproduce the second half of what is required to mate?

In other words both parties woul dhave to have developed from a father/mother set that didn't have these traits and by random mutation they would have to suddenly both have the individual traits fully functional in order for the to mate. How many people do you know that have problems having kids? I know of a couple. All that has to happen is one little thing is off and no babies for J00. What if the vagina wall didn't meet with the cervix or the cervix didn't open properly or any number of 1billion things that could happen? The traits would be incomplete and useless is what would happen. If a trait is useless, according to darwin, what happens to it? It goes the way of the tail. if a trait is not used it is inefficient and it ceases to exist. Unless both the male and the female were formed by random mutation to have fully functional reproductive systems at the exact same time and in the same spot (geographically) and then realized what to do and had all the openings connected properly, according to darwin the trait would cease to exist.

What you are seeing is an impossibility folks. This did not happen. Evolution is a lie, not to mention a poorly formed lie. Darwin himself said that if his hypothesis is true that the evidence would be in the fossil record. There is ZERO evidence in the fossil record. Why? you might ask. Because evolution didn't happen that is why.

It is cut and dry. The only other option besides evolution is a designer. People say that we can make life in a tube. It is in fact not completely true but even if it were that is intelligent design. Someone is acting upon specified matter in a specified way to create a result. That is how we came to be.

It says in the Bible that God is evident in his creation and life itsself proves that we are complex and created.

Prophesizer said...

To say there is science and no God is contradictory of the very concept of science itself. Any honest scientist would never believe or say that something so perfectly complex that it cannot be duplicated through science, that perfectly operates so precisely and consistently that its aspects can become reliable enough to be considered fact and law, something so well designed as the earth, universe, and life itself, could just come to be out of an explosion of gases. If someone said that a car just appeared when some mixed gases exploded in their lab, there's no scientist that would believe that, and a car doesn't even run nor is designed as perfectly as the earth. The scientist would say anything that runs and is designed as well as a car would have to have a creator, but yet they go back and say that the earth, which is designed so well that it cleanses and replenishes itself (at least when man isn't destroying it) and all of the natural systems work perfectly systematic and harmonious without end, didn't have a creator and just happened for no reason - please.

Common sense, as well as the principles of science itself, declare that there had to be a creator; otherwise all of science is worthless. Even the great Albert Einstein had to attest to this.

So, how can they say there is no creator? Because of one simple thing called pride. Their pride tells them that they cannot allow something to be greater than themselves (as in mankind) because that makes them less than the most powerful and highest existence in the universe, and their pride will not allow them to accept that. But, just as the scripture someone posted, the fear of the LORD is the beginning of all knowledge. They'd rather publicly deny the truth that they know their own philosophy supports, than risk rejection or embarrassment of their peers. But, if you jump out of a plane and proclaim you don't believe in gravity, you're still going to be squished when you hit the ground. May they find truth before it's too late.

Prophesizer

P.S. Even if they didn't believe, the ultimate truths taught by the word - respecting eachother, loving eachother, respecting the design and laws of nature, preserving life, etc. - could only have good results if followed with the full context of their lessons.

P.S.S. Why live if there's no purpose and you were just accidentally created for no reason without any purpose? Only a creator can give a creation a purpose.

alaskantheorist said...

It is always comical to read blog posts from wannabe scientific experts like a number posted above...folks, really, do you really not realize how many of the arguments you set forth here have been soundly rebutted and debunked in other forums?

I only hope that Hammer fans don't trust these posts for valid scientific arguments against atheism....(thousands of evolutionary biologists have studied the morphology of mammalian reproductive systems - I'm SURE they have an explanation of how our amazing male and female systems developed over eons).

Secondly, I really hope you are completely unconvinced that simply because something is complex does NOT mean that it has to be divinely inspired. In fact, take a second to consider how many "mistakes", genetic goof-ups and mutations occur in biological reality every day...from diseases to missing limbs...this is not God's retribution on the earth, but just nature, in its course - humans and all other life on earth is FAR from perfect, precise OR consistent, thanks very much.

Chew on the alternative...contemplate John Lennon's inspiring lyrics:

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace


This debate is a wonderful one - just don't give in to the temptation of patting your similar-minded peers on the back - instead, let's challenge each other to step outside of our comfort zones!! Thanks MCH!

Prophesizer said...

To say that the earth created itself, or that nature runs its own course... Even such a statement as that, "it's just nature," is inadvertantly giving nature an acknowledgement of power and control, making then nature or chance or theory a god to the person whose faith is in it. Whatever you say caused the creation of life, whether it is scientific or not, you are giving it authority to yourself as a creator - something greater than you, so regardless you believe in a god. It's then just a question of what you give that power to. If one believed there is/was no God, why would one even waste time to try to refute it?

Maybe, just maybe, down inside, those same persons that fight it are fighting it so hard to try and convince themselves, because somewhere deep down there is hope that God does exist and that their life has no purpose, because no matter how hard they search, science can never prove its claim that there is no God.

After all, no one argues with a child that there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny. So, if someone truly doesn't believe in God, why even waste time debating it?

Regardless though, God doesn't need man to validate Himself.

masterblaster said...

I dont know Hammer! I just dont know...

Vince P. said...

It's been interesting to watch this debate/sharing and see it run its course. Many of the same arguments that I have seen elsewhere have been raised here. The difference I think is that it's occurring here instead of in some stuffy seminary or church; among people who believe and do not believe and in a forum where it does not normally occur. And that's fantastic as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think anyone with any integrity can really claim to have all the answers. Even if you accept all of the assertions of science AND atheism (and please believe me when I tell you that a scientific outlook does not require being atheist), the scientist still has to admit that they don't actually know how the laws of nature and nature itself came to be. They might claim that it’s infinite and it need not have a beginning or an end. And they might be right. But that doesn’t really answer the question we all feel in our hearts.

The church-going believer faces a similar dilemma I think. They can have the faith. They can feel the spirit. They can believe in the Word. And at the end of the day, they will claim that one "just has to have faith" that it's all ultimately meaningful. That faith would not be required if one could empirically or scientifically KNOW instead.

So, I leave this debate now. And I leave it with doubt. And doubt is my comfort and my irritant; the fly in my ointment and the ointment itself. I think that rather than spurn doubt, we should let it be our friend. The believer doubts anyway. The scientist doubts too. Why fight that?

Certainty can only be obtained with enough perspective and we are but specks of dust in this galaxy. Let the scientist overwhelm your sense of self and make you feel awe as you realize your place in this order. Let the believer add expression to your awe and give you words and music to express a new found appreciation of our own preciousness. If we are nothing but chaos manifest, we are irreplaceable. If we are truly the children of God, we are just as irreplaceable.

And please, whatever you do, always know that we all have the same basic questions and needs and that despite the answers we think we have, the person next to you is but one speck of difference from you.

Peace!

-Vince

VincePlatt@yahoo.com

Bovorious said...

It's easy to support the idea of an existing God, sitting in a couch, in front of a PC, drinking coffee, reading the papers etc etc. Try doing the same in the middle of a war, watching your wife and children die by soldiers who believe in God.

Children die from starvation 2-3 weeks after they are born in Africa! Nursery schools are bombed in Iraq (by people who believe in God). Where is God in all that?

We are alone! Unprotected!

spencer said...

Whatever you say caused the creation of life, whether it is scientific or not, you are giving it authority to yourself as a creator - something greater than you, so regardless you believe in a god.

With all due respect, this is just wrong. Nature is not a god. Gods cannot be examined, poked, prodded, observed and understood. Gods, if they existed, would obey no physical or natural laws and are therefore completely outside nature.

On the other hand, we do understand nature. We understand our role in it. We understand how we came to be a part of it, and we can explain it without relying on the intervention of an unobservable supernatural force.

In other words, we don't need to appeal to the idea of a god in order to explain our existence.

As you might guess, I don't believe in God or in gods. Your suggestion that by merely accepting the fact that the human race is here, we are acknowledging a belief in a god of some sort, makes no sense at all. It might be better for you to come to grips with the fact that not everybody feels the need to believe in a god. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other. I'm simply saying that they are fundamentally different, and just because you argue otherwise doesn't make it so.

spencer said...

Whatever you say caused the creation of life, whether it is scientific or not, you are giving it authority to yourself as a creator - something greater than you, so regardless you believe in a god.

With all due respect, this is just wrong. Nature is not a god. Gods cannot be examined, poked, prodded, observed and understood. Gods, if they existed, would obey no physical or natural laws and are therefore completely outside nature.

On the other hand, we do understand nature. We understand our role in it. We understand how we came to be a part of it, and we can explain it without relying on the intervention of an unobservable supernatural force.

In other words, we don't need to appeal to the idea of a god in order to explain our existence.

As you might guess, I don't believe in God or in gods. Your suggestion that by merely accepting the fact that the human race is here, we are acknowledging a belief in a god of some sort, makes no sense at all. It might be better for you to come to grips with the fact that not everybody feels the need to believe in a god. I'm not saying that one way is better than the other. I'm simply saying that they are fundamentally different, and just because you argue otherwise doesn't make it so.

masterblaster said...

Go get them Spencer

Prophesizer said...

Your opinion of it being wrong is an opinion that you have the right to hold, but doesn't make it correct. However, you are entitled to such opinions and ultimately take your own destiny and eternity into your own hands.

I mean no offense though. I am only sharing these views because, as I do believe in the eternal word, I desire to see none face even a possibility of an eternal Hell. I cannot convince you of God; only the conviction of your own heart can do that. But I do know how God, through the sacrifice made by His son Jesus, has opened my mind and changed my life and the life of many more. One way of that is because I too used to put my trust in science and human reasoning, until my spirit through God convicted my heard and convinced me differently. I shall not continue to debate it, but I only offer a little food for thought.

Would it be better to believe and be wrong then die and nothing happen, than to reject it and be wrong and spend an eternity in torment? Also, if there is no purpose for us coming to be, that it just happened for no apparent reason, why even be here? Purpose (role in nature) is given.

I wish you the best of life, and peace, and welcome you to contact me if you ever do desire to seek or delve into matters of faith: not to argue, but to share and seek these answers to life together in brotherhood.

Prophesizer

Vince P. said...

Prophesizer, everyone is entitled to their opinion, I have no doubt of that. However, one should expect to be challenged on those opinions when there is not agreement with an opinion. There's very few things more precious in society than free discourse (my opinion of course), and that discourse can be conducted in the sprit of unity or not. That's a choice we all have to make every day. So, please don't consider this arguing, but a sharing of a perspective. I think that folks who don't associate with an organized religion are poorly understood. I'm not attempting to speak for them all, but this is a perspective that might help.

Now, when I express my opinion to you about faith, religion, the religious experience, etc. I can choose to say to you "one just have to have faith in that" at the end of what I'm saying. If I choose to do that, then I am pretty much just expecting the listener to throw reason to the wind, because what I am actually saying is that "you can not know this through reason, you just have to trust that I am telling you the truth and I think you should believe it too" (or at least that's my interpretation of it).

So, do you really mean to say that the religious experience can only be approached without reason? And so why should I believe any dogma or scripture that anyone has to offer that reason, science, or even empirically validated history can not validate? Don't forget - I counted myself among the faithful at one point. I wanted it to be true. Life would be simpler for me if it were.

So, why believe it then?

You can't really answer that question without referring back to the Bible, Torah, Koran, Upanishads, etc. and to "because you just have to have faith". And that, in logic terms, is a tautology, as in: it's true because I said so. Many or most of us are taught religion in just that manner by our parents and other loved ones who mean well, but at some point some of us started to wonder why it always comes down to “faith”. Faith stopped being a good reason for me when I started wondering why “faith” was always required. It all fell apart when I started asking questions.

There is an alternative to throwing reason out the door. The alternative is to observe the universe and the world around us and to experience it *without judging* it. Seeking to understand our place in this universe requires an open mind, without calling things "good" or "evil" and without fear of eternal damnation. (Just what the heck is eternal damnation anyway and why is that a necessary part of Christianity? Could it be because the religious establishments (Christia or otherwise) have historically sought to control people? Food for thought.)

So, would it be better to believe and to be wrong, than to not believe at all? No. Because faith without reason is not real belief anyway if you believe in reason. You can not be truthfully faithful to your religion and your God when you believe in reason, because reason does not allow for unexamined belief in religious dogma and scripture.

But now, if you don't or won't believe in reason, then you have a very big dilemma indeed. How is anything to make sense at all without it? From what basis can you operate without the rudiments of the scientific process/cause and effect/logic if you don't believe in reason?

So, where am I without faith? I'm doing fine. I have wonder. I have awe. I still have a religious experience, but without the religion, dogma, or scripture. I have my abilities. I have the people around me that I love every day and that love me back. But I don't have fear anymore. I don't have a contrived set of rules around a scripture that's been mangled into nonsense through repeated editing, well intentioned censoring, and translating over the millennia. I don't have a belief system that will ever lead me to religious war against neighbors who happen to believe in a different god and different scripture.

In short, I am free. It's a sort of freedom of which anyone can partake and I invite you to do so.

-Vince

VincePlatt@yahoo.com

DeepThought said...

http://www.wayofthemaster.com/evolution.shtml

Take a look at this site, the second video.

Vince P. said...

Oh great, the banana argument. I sincerely hoped that this one didn't come up because it's not very useful to the case for theism, much less Christianity or another specific religion. I assume your point is in support of intelligent design right? Either that or you're just yanking my chain. With that in mind…

For anyone who does view the video, please know that bananas as we know them today are only convenient and nice to eat because of our own interference in nature. Selective breeding and re-planting are what makes the banana what it is today. You'll have to go read up on that if you want to verify it. I don't have time to sit here and churn out source material and it’s not my area anyway.

As for the intelligent design argument in general, I think the way it's presented is the problem; though there *may* be a kernel of truth in it. God himself (if ever there existed such an anthropomorphic being dreamed up by human ego and hubris), if he had designed the human eyeball or any other part of our anatomy in theory would have done a perfect job no? After all, he is in theory an all powerful and all knowing being. Then why do some people go blind? Why do we have imperfect vision? Why are some of us born without eyesight? Remember, this eyesight is supposedly designed perfectly by a perfect being. Would such a God do a half-ways job like this?

"Because God wants to teach us lessons", you might say. And why would God need to create imperfect beings only to teach us lessons I ask?

It really doesn’t add up. The traditional view of some sort of God that holds some sort of personal interest in us and is all powerful, all knowing, compassionate, good, and triumvirate as all Christians believe, doesn’t make sense. That kind of God doesn’t exist as far as I can see and the kind of God we like to think is “on our side” in way especially doesn’t make sense.

But that’s not the end of the story. The atheist traditionally declares victory at this point because they have a political agenda too. I’m not that guy. The story doesn’t end there because there are still some fundamental (perhaps unanswerable) questions to be asked. If natural selection, biology, chemistry, physics, etc. are all views on forces of the universe, then whence came the forces? We think we understand there is such a thing as the big bang, entropy, and the imperceptible oscillation of the universe between created and not-created. From where did those forces come from? Never mind the prime mover, where is the prime conceiver of these forces, “laws”, and the mathematical method that apparently permeates all of it?

The very image of this demands, and can only be expressed with, poetry. Such is the raw matter for scripture and contemplation of our scientific knowledge coupled with our sense of awe and need to experience these mysteries is a spiritual experience of its own. It is not atheism, nor theism, nor Christianity, nor Islam, nor Hinduism, ad infinitum. It is the simple and pure mystical experience not to be contaminated with mere interpretation if it is treasured.

Lee Rudnicki said...

I subscribe to Wired, cool mag, but it seems to have less and less content all the time, and mostly consists of ads and wacky promotions these days...

MC Hammer said...

all thoughts and comments are helpful and I appreciate the postive spirit in which we have approached this sensitive subject.

Slappy said...

Since videotape there have been no "miracles" performed. No parted seas, no virgin births, no water into wine.

Coincidence?

Before Jesus there was Zeus. And yet Zeus gets no respect because as everyone knows, these ancient religions were merely there to explain the mysteries of the world around them. But the Bible doesn't do that? Oh no.

Atheists are flexible and thinking. They know they do not understand the universe entirely but work toward furthering knowledge. Religion explains the universe around us in simplistic terms and helps us feel better about our own mortality. It also gives excuse to ignorance and hate for those who do not believe are doomed and hence inferior. And therefore easily exterminated in the name of god. THEIR god. Scientist argue all the time and are always correcting themselves and others. The Bible can not be rewritten or abridged. Somehow people living thousands of years ago were so much brighter and enlightened than today I suppose.

Religious people are amongst the most intolerant and unforgiving of people. More people have died in the name of god than for ANY other reason. Science does not exclude any people. It accepts any idea that can be backed up by facts, not superstition and fear. Science accepts death, it does not fear it and therefore has no need to try and make us feel better about it.

Now go out there and video tape yourself a miracle and prove me wrong. And while you are doing that, realize that it took thousands of years of science to give US the ability to CREATE your Sony HD.

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Baby Bedding said...

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 3)
Blessed are the meek: for they shall posses the land. (Verse 4)
Blessed are they who mourn: for they shall be comforted. (Verse 5)
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill. (Verse 6)
Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. (Verse 7)
Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. (Verse 8)
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. (Verse 9)
Blessed are they that suffer persecution for justice' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Verse 10)